Talk:Victoria, Hong Kong

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More email from the HK government[edit]

I emailed the San Francisco office of the HK Economic and Trade office, since they are speak much better English. I was very clear about the terms Victoria City and capital in my query. I have removed identifying information from this response, like the others. If you want to ask for yourself, feel free, the URL remains. Not only did he say "does not have a Victoria City" but he underlined the word "not". Are we done now?

Thank you for your mail.

Being a Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China,
Hong Kong is a city with just above 1,100 square kilometers of total area
covering Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and the New Territories and Islands.

Hong Kong's Victoria Harbour is famous for its deep water ports facilitating
trade and industry, and also for its picturesque night scenery. Nevertheless,
we do not have a "Victoria City" nor does Hong Kong have a "capital", either
before or after the 1997 handover.

Here are a few websites with information which might be of interest to you:
Government Information Center
http://www.info.gov.hk/eindex.htm
A to Z Index
http://www.info.gov.hk/topic_f.htm
About Hong Kong
http://www.info.gov.hk/ef3.htm

We also have some publications which I think would facilitate your research.
If you would kindly let me have your postal address, I would be happy to send
you the publications.

Thank you for your interest in Hong Kong and look forward to hearing from you.

Best reards,
 -xx-
--------------------------------------------

Public Relations Officer
Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office
San Francisco
Web site: http://www.hongkong.org


and then, moments later, another email appeared from this persons boss.

This is to supplement my colleague -----'s response to your enquiry.

Hong Kog has never been a country - it's a Bristish crown colony before
reverting back to China in 1997.

When the British first took over the Hong Kong Island in the early 1840's,
a town was built near the waterfront of the Victoria Hoarbor where the present
Central District area situate, and the place was known as the city of Victoria.
Howver, that name (Victoria City) has long been eclipsed by Central District in
popular usage.  (You may refer to p.17 of "A Modern History of Hong Kong" by Steve
Tsang).  While Central District has long been the financial and adminstrative
cluster in Hong Kong, this area should not be referred to the "capitol" as Hong Kong
has never been a country.      

I hope that helps your report writing.

Thanks.

--
Deputy Director (Public Relations)
Hong Kong Economic & Trade Office
San Francisco
Website: http://www.hongkong.org 

Now, can we put this ENTIRELY to rest? (added by SchmuckyTheCat at 03:00 and 03:05, Mar 12, 2005)

Thanks for telling where exactly did you write to. It makes life easier to follow up.
Back to the two e-mails. On one hand, she/he mentioned Hong Kong has no capital. On the other hand the reason why Hong Kong has no capital is because Hong Kong is not and has never been a country. The argument backing the claim was an invalid one.
The name "Victoria City" or "the City of Victoria" is eclipsed in popular usage, but in legal term it still exists. Furthermore the limits of the City of Victoria do not overlap with the modern-day popular usage of Central. — Instantnood 14:14, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
I just knew he wont accept the above. Maybe the next thing we need to do is to email the chief justice.--Huaiwei 14:30, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


Territorial extent of the City of Victoria[edit]

Victoria City covers Central, Kennedy Town, East Point, Sai Ying Pun, Shek Tong Tsui, Happy Valley, the Mid-levels, the Peak, Wan Chai, not just Central. The boundary stones are all located outside Central. It's erroneous to say that the name Victoria City is eclipsed by Central. 203.198.25.249 (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that Central is only one part of Victoria City. The popular name for Victoria City is Central (see synecdoche). This is a separate issue from what the place actually covers. The island of Great Britain is only part of the UK, but it's still popularly used to refer to the entire UK.
[1]: "Central Hong Kong is officially named Victoria City, but nobody ever calls it this."
[2]: "the city of Victoria, a name that has long since been eclipsed by Central District in popular usage."
[3]: "Generally referred to these days as either Central or Chung Wang (Middle Circuit), in official documents the district is still known by its early designation as the city of Victoria."
[4]: "The district was originally named Victoria ... But as the 'capital' of the territory, it has been called Central at least since WWII."
Spellcast (talk) 12:55, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
As posted below, "Central is the hub of the City of Victoria. [5]". As a matter of fact, Central covers only the area between Sheung Wan and Wan Chai.., to many people not even the Tamar Site or Admiralty Station would consider to be within Central. Yet all these places are well within the limit of the City of Victoria.
According to Sched 1 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance, e.g., the eastern limit of the City of Victoria runs along Hing Fat Street, which is to the east of the Victoria Park. Therefore Victoria Park is within the city limits. Would anyone consider Victoria Park to be in Central? By the same token, would anyone consider Kennedy Town or the campus of HKU to be in Central? Are they within Victoria City? 119.236.250.27 (talk) 18:21, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Again, what the place actually covers has nothing to do with its popular name. The bottom line is that the region that Victoria City originally covered is now called Central in popular usage, even though Central is now only one part of it. This is simple to understand and unless you have sources disputing the popular name, there's no reason to remove it. Spellcast (talk) 01:01, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
The problem is that Central refers only to area between Sheung Wan and Wan Chai, and to some, only between Sheung Wan and Admiralty. The rest of the city is never called Central. 119.236.250.27 (talk) 05:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Unless you have a source disputing the ones above, Victoria being called Central in popular usage stays. Besides, I've clarified that Victoria doesn't only cover Central. Spellcast (talk) 09:19, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
"Unless you have a source disputing the ones above" - It's ridiculous to ask for a source that argues against an erroneous source. The sources aren't referring or debating with each other just because they might be cited on Wikipedia. Only Central is being called Central. The rest of the city are never and have never been called Central. 119.236.250.27 (talk) 15:03, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
People unaware of place names may refer to the entire HK Island as Central. Names are often fast and loose with meaning in the informal sense. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
The four reliable sources above share the same sentiment. Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say, not by whether one person thinks they're correct or not. Spellcast (talk) 20:53, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit protected[edit]

119.236.141.71 (talk · contribs) added an {{editprotect}} template earlier today, to request following edits. I believe that these might be controversial or not supported by consensus, since they were added as part of the series of edits which led to this page being protected. That template is therefore innappropriate until consensus has been reached. Tim PF (talk)

To make the following edits:

  1. To add ", etc" after "Victoria Junior Chamber", since these aren't the only organisations in the territory with the name Victoria or Victoria City in it.
  2. To add "{{Clarify|Reason=Victoria City covers Central, Kennedy Town, East Point, Happy Valley, the Mid-levels, the Peak, Wan Chai, not just Central.|date=June 2011}} The name "Victoria" is still used in [[Victoria Park, Hong Kong|Victoria Park]], [[Victoria Peak]], [[Victoria Harbour]], [[Victoria Prison]], and [[List_of_places_named_after_Victoria_of_the_United_Kingdom#Hong_Kong|a number of roads and streets]]." after "eclipsed by Central District in popular usage", since the City of Victoria covers a much much broader area than Central.
  3. To add "known in modern times as" after "Choong Wan (", to clarify that "Choong Wan" was the old name.

These edits were lost in the previous blind reverts by persistent vandalists. 119.236.141.71 (talk) 06:30, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I note that the above were made as part of these edits, by 203.198.25.249 (talk · contribs), which appear to include some of the controversial edits. Tim PF (talk) 10:17, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid these are non-disputed and non-disputable facts. Please kindly refrain from removing others' requests with apparently incorrect allegations. 119.236.250.27 (talk) 10:30, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Central is the hub of the City of Victoria. [6] 119.236.250.27 (talk) 11:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Per the above note from Tim PF. Avicennasis @ 12:02, 9 Sivan 5771 / 11 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm afraid all these aren't relevant at all to the edit dispute. The vandalists are simply undoing everything. 119.236.250.27 (talk) 18:23, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

"Etc" is not needed at the end because "such as" is already used earlier in the sentence. See WP:MOS#Subset terms. Spellcast (talk) 02:26, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

What about point #1 and #3? 119.236.250.27 (talk) 05:46, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
#1 is discussed above and #3 seems non-controversial. Spellcast (talk) 09:19, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
For #3, I've simply changed it to Central. Historical names can be explained in the Central article. Spellcast (talk) 09:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
For #1, that's for clarity. For #3, by changing it to Central the historical touch of the four wans, meaning circuits or rings, is lost. This isn't satisfactory for an encyclopedic article. 119.236.250.27 (talk) 15:03, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't be a big deal either way, so I've restored it. Spellcast (talk) 20:53, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

List of Wans and Districts[edit]

Does anyone know the source for the list of four wans and nine yeuks/districts set (according to article) in 1857? There's a reference to Jason Wordie in this paragraph but this seems to refer to the boundary stones, at least that's all I can find in Wordie's book. The closest that I can find is the following:

  • 1844, three districts: Sheungwan, Chungwan, Hawan [7] (bottom of page 220, source dates to 1895)
  • 1866, nine districts: equals list of article but with different spelling [8], no wans mentioned (page 907, ordinance No. 7 of 1866)

Any pointers to the 1857 source are appreciated. --Matthäus Wander (talk) 21:27, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

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